Ep2 | If You're Stirring the Pot, You're Doing It Right - Nina van Heeckeren
16 December, 2024
Introduction:
In Episode 2 of Art Vs The Algorithm, host Will Preisner visits the studio of Nina van Heeckeren, a Manchester-based ceramic sculptor and designer, to discuss her artistic process, the cultural perceptions of nudity, and how her work reflects her own journey toward empowerment and self-expression. Nina, known for her figurative and abstract sculptures inspired by the female form and nature, shares the challenges of being an artist in today’s world, her thoughts on censorship, and the value of creating art for oneself.
Nina’s Journey: From Switzerland to Manchester
Nina’s passion for art emerged during her early teens in rural Switzerland. A ceramics class at school ignited her love for figurative sculpture. “Everyone was doing cupcakes and dogs, and I did five really dramatic nude women in crazy poses. That’s when I knew this was what I wanted to do,” she recalls. While her creative spirit stood out, she often felt like an outsider in her conservative environment. “I found them all to be very normal, and I didn’t like that, so I left,” she adds, reflecting on her move to Manchester in search of a more creative and open-minded community.
Her upbringing in Switzerland wasn’t without challenges, particularly around body image. “People are very healthy in Switzerland, which is great… but plus-size women weren’t really in my childhood. That’s always been part of my identity - worrying about how my body looks and how others perceive it. That translates into my art,” Nina says. These personal experiences have informed her focus on celebrating diverse body types through her work.
The Role of the Human Body in Nina’s Work
Central to Nina’s art is a deep appreciation for the human form, particularly the female body. She describes her work as “accidentally self-reflective,” often realising after a piece is complete how it connects to her personal experiences. “I don’t sit down thinking I want to get this emotion out of myself. But I’ll look back at it in a few months and be like, ‘Oh, that’s what I was going through back then.’”
Her approach to figurative art is driven by a desire to challenge societal attitudes toward bodies and nudity. “Most of my sculptures are of plus-size women. I want someone to look at one of my pieces and think, ‘Wow, she’s got a beautiful body,’” Nina explains. Her work aims to positively impact how people perceive and celebrate diverse body types.
Challenging Censorship and Algorithmic Barriers
Like many artists working with the nude form, Nina has encountered censorship on social media platforms, which has shaped not only how she shares her work but also her thoughts on societal taboos. She shared an incident where Instagram removed a photo of a pregnant woman holding her belly because part of her areola was visible. “Even more disgraceful that this got taken off Instagram. It’s completely ridiculous… but it’s like fighting an unbeatable battle.”
Nina acknowledges the broader implications of such censorship. “It’s very restrictive. It’s like your nipples shouldn’t exist almost - they’re only to feed babies or pleasure men.” She criticises how these rules are dictated by a small group of people in one industry, projecting their cultural values onto the rest of the world.
Despite the challenges, Nina remains focused on her art rather than seeking external validation. “Art’s a really personal process, and it should be my right to keep that to myself. When I let go of that and reminded myself why I was doing the piece, honestly, it felt like such a revelation.”
Clay Life: Making Sculpture Accessible
Nina is also the founder of Clay Life, a workshop series that introduces people to sculpting the human form. The idea came to her in late 2023 after realising there were no accessible life sculpting classes, unlike the abundance of life drawing options. “I wanted to open up a space for people to feel comfortable in themselves,” she shares. The workshops attract a range of participants, many of whom haven’t touched clay since childhood. Nina’s clear and confident teaching style encourages beginners to embrace the process and create something they’re proud of.
Reflecting on the success of Clay Life, Nina explains, “I’ve been going really well. Obviously, not every day is easy as a small business owner, but I’m really proud of my business and how far it’s gone so far.”
Takeaways for Creatives and Art Enthusiasts
Nina’s inspiring story and approach to art offer valuable insights for artists, small business owners, and anyone interested in self-expression. Here are the key takeaways from this episode:
- Celebrate the Human Form in All Its Diversity - “Most of my sculptures are of plus-size women. I want someone to look at one of my pieces and think, ‘Wow, she’s got a beautiful body.’” Nina’s work challenges traditional beauty standards and promotes body positivity through art.
- Use Art as a Tool for Self-Reflection - Nina’s creative process is deeply personal, often revealing her emotional journey after the fact. “I’ll look back at [my work] and be like, ‘Oh, that’s what I was going through back then.’” Art can be a powerful way to process and understand personal experiences.
- Stand Firm Against Censorship - Censorship of figurative art, particularly of women’s bodies, remains a significant challenge. Nina emphasises the importance of raising awareness about how censorship shapes societal attitudes. “It’s restrictive. It’s like your nipples shouldn’t exist almost.”
- Focus on the Process, Not Validation - Art’s a really personal process, and it should be my right to keep that to myself.” Nina encourages artists to create for themselves rather than seeking external approval, particularly from social media.
- Create Accessible Opportunities for Creativity - Through Clay Life, Nina has made sculpture accessible to beginners and non-artists, showing the value of creativity at any stage in life. “A lot of clients come in saying they haven’t touched clay since school. I tell them, ‘Let’s just have some fun.’”
- Be Bold and Authentic - Nina’s advice for navigating external criticism: “Just say, ‘It’s art, darling.’ It is what it is.” This unapologetic approach emphasises staying true to yourself and your vision.
Listen to the Episode
To hear more about Nina van Heeckeren’s artistic journey, her thoughts on censorship, and how she’s making sculpture accessible through Clay Life, listen to Episode 2 of Art Vs The Algorithm - If You're Stirring the Pot, You're Doing It Right - Nina van Heeckeren at the top of the page or wherever you get your podcasts. Don’t forget to follow or subscribe to support the podcast and stay tuned for more in-depth conversations with exceptional artists and creatives!
Ready to hear more? Tune into this and other great episodes of Art Vs The Algorithm here.
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Episode Transcript:
00:19
Hello, welcome to episode two of Art vs the Algorithm, or AVA for short. I'm Will Preisner, your host, and I'm an art nude and portrait photographer, and I'm also a commercial cinematographer. In this episode, I'm talking to Nina van Heekeren, a ceramic sculptor and designer based in the UK, and I was lucky to be able to record our conversation in person in her studio in Manchester and see her incredible work up close. Nina was very open and I had so much fun chatting with her about all things art.
00:48
She shared her experiences of her world of ceramic sculpture that I'm fascinated by but admittedly I've got no idea about until this episode. If you'd like to see Nina's work for yourself or find out more about getting involved in her clay life workshops that we discussed in this episode, please see the description for her details. Clay life is where we met and it was the most fulfilling art class experience I think I've ever had in my life and I couldn't recommend it more so definitely check it out. So without further ado, let's get on to the episode.
01:19
First of all, where are we? Oh, we're at my studio in Hope Mill. And Coates, it's actually an old cotton mill from back in the day. So it's got a lot of its original features, nice red brick building and a really cool lift. Those doors that you slide open, that kind of looks scary and really creepy. A lot of people don't want to come in them, but I love them. I think it adds like a lot of character to the building. So yeah, that's where we are. These old Bankunian buildings, they've got a lot of character. And you've made your studio quite characterful too.
01:48
How have you managed to put your mark on this space? I feel like it's kind of inevitable because it's my studio. So like it is quite literally just an extension of myself, this space, like it's literally my happy space. And obviously like inundated with plants, that was actually a COVID thing. I was a COVID cliche and I have 64 plants now. So it's a- That's a great thing. Yeah, I don't think it's a worse thing that could have happened. No, get some wife into it. Yeah. So what do you do here?
02:18
I'm a ceramic sculptress and designer. So a lot of my practice revolves around figurative sculpture of the nude form, mostly the female form and a lot of abstract sort of quirky, inspired by architecture type of forms, very like nature inspired. I do quite a bit of interior design as well. Basically this is a ceramic studio and yeah, I'm a hand builder so that's what I do. How long have you been in there?
02:48
Gosh, it's been like four and a half years now that I've been here, nearly five actually, yeah. It wasn't always this space. I had a tiny little studio next door that was maybe like half the size, if I'm being that generous, maybe quarter of the size of this. Someone moved out of this and I was like, I'll have it. Okay, amazing. So what role does the human body play in your work? I mean, I think it's quite a central point in my work. Most pieces, even if it's just an abstract piece of art, usually somehow ends up...
03:17
with a nude woman in it. So yeah, it's a pretty focal point of my artwork. I think I've just always been fascinated by the female form and inspired by it. As I said, a lot of my work is inspired by nature. So I actually grew up in rural Switzerland and I see a lot of the female form in my art. So, and nature around me, yeah. And can you take me back to what it was that inspired you to become?
03:47
and use the human body, the female form in your work. Was there a specific kind of point? Yeah, I feel like a lot of my work is accidentally very self-reflective. I don't necessarily sit down thinking I want to get this emotion out of myself. But what ends up happening is I'll finish a piece and then I'll look back at it in a few months and I'll be like, oh, that's what I was going through back then. So I think it's like often...
04:16
Yeah, it's very self-reflective and I did grow up in Switzerland where body image, especially for women, was kind of a massive problem for myself. People are very healthy in Switzerland, which is great, obviously. You want to have a healthy lifestyle. But plus-size women, or men, weren't really in my childhood. I went to a school with maybe 1,500 people and there must have been maybe four plus-size people.
04:45
And I was always on the chubbier side of the spectrum. So it's always been a big part of my identity worrying about the way my body looks, how other people perceive it. So I guess that kind of just translates itself back into my art quite often. You know? I see. So like almost studying your own experience through your work. Yeah. And you're trying to understand it deeper.
05:09
Yeah, but it's very accidental. Like, I don't sit down thinking that's what I'm going to do. It's just like, I look back at it, I'm like, oh right, yeah, no. It's like when you analyze your work afterwards, you see. Yeah, no, totally. So it's a difficult question for me to ask you, like, an exact point. But I found in my own experiences, I feel like there's, when I look back, it's like, oh, I think that was the trigger for why I started down this path. And often it comes out of a position of difficulty or... Oh, yeah.
05:37
a challenge, you know, it's a challenge that you face and you're trying to solve it somehow using art. I think it was probably coming into my teens, obviously all your hormones are changing, your body's changing, and I do not really remember the specific point at which I was like I want to be a figurative artist, but I do remember the specific point which I first noticed my passion for it. I was like 13, 14 years old and it was in a ceramic...
06:05
session that I was doing at school, so just like an art class, and everyone was sort of doing like cupcakes and dogs and cats and cute things, and I did like five really dramatic nude women in these crazy poses, and that's when I knew that like this is what I wanted to do. So I've known from a very young age that I wanted to be a sculptress, so. How did that go down with the rest of the class at the time? I think everyone must have thought I was completely bonkers, and like my arts teacher definitely had a...
06:33
Okay, moment, I was just like, yeah, this is me. But yeah, no, yeah, I don't think I really cared what anyone thought, to be honest. That's exactly the right approach, especially at that age, to have that at that point. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I was never like the cool kid at school, you know what I mean? So like, I was already used to like being at terms with the fact that people probably already had judgment or thoughts about me, so. Yeah, a little bit of rebellion.
07:01
Yeah, oh god yeah, I love it. I was not the easiest student, you know. Sorry! Well, you've turned out well. That's all that matters. We're all good now. It's all good now. That's just in your wake. So I'll just mention briefly how we met at Clay Life. Yeah. Like I came to one of your classes. Could you tell me a little bit more about Clay Life? I mean, I obviously know what Clay Life is, but just for the listeners. Okay.
07:28
So clay life is my business. I started it in December, 2023, and I started it because I saw a gap in the market. I'm obviously, as I've been talking about, very passionate about the female form and celebrating everybody, to be honest. So like, I don't just sculpt women, I sculpt men, I sculpt all different types of abstract things. I know it's a gap in the market because there's loads of life drawing, but there was no life sculpting. And I've got...
07:55
a wealth of experience in teaching ceramics to all age groups, to all abilities. And I just realized, hey, I've never taught someone how to sculpt the nude form before. And how many people would absolutely love that. So yeah, I started to play life and I've been going really well. Obviously, not every day is easy. As a small business owner, you know, it can be really difficult. But
08:19
as far as having started in December goes, I'm actually really proud of my business and for how far it's gone so far. So yeah. I think you should be. I mean, I'm not just saying this, like I really enjoyed it. You were great. And also, thank you. I'm also proud of what I made, which was like a really good reason to go and do it. Absolutely. It was more, for me, it was more accessible than life drawing because I mean, you were really clear about how to build the human form, like from the ground up. And like with a...
08:47
I don't know, with a solid approach. And I found, like with life drawing, I found it really difficult to get my head around that. But like, you just made it so clear when you're teaching it. And I couldn't recommend it more if you're fancy trying something. And also it's so different. Yeah. Like I've always been like, oh, I'd love to have a go at sculpture. I just don't know how to even approach it. So this is a great way to do it. So what's your view on the current state of sort of societal attitudes towards the human body and the nude in art, like in general? It's quite a deep question.
09:17
There's a lot going on, like there's massive movements that people are taking towards body positivity, which I'm so here for. And that's kind of my mission as well with Clay Life. I love that I've opened up a space for people to feel comfortable in themselves. So I'm really excited to see like in the media, you know, more inclusion of plus size women, POC, people of color.
09:42
even opening up a conversation to talk about trans rights, you know, like this is all fairly prevalent in society and I think it's really healthy to do that and to challenge these really closed preconceptions that people have had for absolutely donkey's years about the nude form and obviously the female form has been massively sexualized, especially over the last 100 years or what have you not. Although you know...
10:12
Rome wasn't built in a day. I can see the direction it's going in. And I think there's massive scope for improvement. And we're dealing with hundreds of years of issues regarding the attitude towards not just women's bodies, but the way people treat women's bodies. So I think we're taking good steps, but as I said, we're dealing with a long history of issues. So it's not just gonna be like, boom.
10:41
better, you know? But I can see it getting better, so that's what. Do you think it's always forward, that direction? Not necessarily. I feel like sometimes you can take two steps forward and one step back, you know? Sometimes you do hear horrible things, you know, horrible things happen every day, not only to women, men. Yeah, it's just really sad that it still happens, but I don't think it's possible to entirely just move forward in a positive way.
11:10
because the human condition is such a complex thing. It is indeed. It's very, it's a very difficult question because- Yeah, it's broad ranging, I just wanna try it. It's like, I'm a Libra, so I see everything. Obviously not that I agree with negative things, but I see that there has to be negative to be positive, and then sort of build your way up in a way. Yeah. How do you feel the current state of society's attitude towards human body and the nude in art? How do you feel that sort of relates to-
11:39
sex? Do you agree with where things are at? I think there's a lot of interesting conversations that I'm noticing in general in my own friendship groups about polyamory for example and having space to sort of express yourself differently sexually. It seems a lot more open than it used to be. I think it was quite archaic back in the day
12:09
that probably a lot of women would have experienced sex, to be honest. And I think, you know... One dimensional. Yeah, one dimensional, a one-way route to the man's way. But I think it is more of a conversation now, and people, women, do feel more comfortable to say, hey, you know, this is what I like, this is what I want. A lot of men, I think, also perceive women to sort of just be...
12:34
kind of always wanting something out of a situation, which I think is really outdated. Like a lot of women just wanna be free in the same way men wanna be free, you know? And I think this is kind of like something that people are still grappling with, but it is a conversation. And I think it's kind of what I mentioned before, it's all these conversations that are opening up and that's how I see it progressing really, you know? Yeah.
12:58
So I'm trying you on some difficult questions. I wasn't expecting these to be there. This is what I'm doing. This is what's happening. It relates to your work, but I'll... So in what way does the nudity in your work, for example, differ from the nudity in pornography, for example? Well, I guess it's the way I view it. It's my vision on out of clay. And I don't...
13:28
view my art as pornographic. Some of it is a bit pornographic, to be honest. I've had my moments. But what would that mean to you, exactly? Like sexualized or? Yeah, so for example, that sculpture there, it was a massive fuck you to the ceramics industry, to be honest. I was just sick of everyone telling me that I had to follow tradition. People telling me that, you know, like, ceramicists, you know, it's supposed to be something that you can use, you're a potter.
13:57
You make plant pots, you make mugs, and it's like, well, no, I make these bonkers sculptures and I'm sick of everyone telling me that I should fit in a category. So I did this mad sculpture of a mouth, two people having sex in the mouth and a big red middle finger on the tongue and an eye coming out of the mouth. I'm feeling the revel in you through that work. I mean, it was just like a mad moment. I don't usually sexualize the human form, but.
14:26
I felt like being vulgar because that's what I felt like people were telling me my art was. So I was like, okay, you want to see vulgar, let's do it. Yeah. So you're like using it to make a point. Yeah, I was using it to make a point. It's not sexualized in my head in general. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I'm very comfortable with my body. Like, I see, like, my form is like the most natural thing in the world. At the same time that I have struggled with my body image, I also feel very comfortable with my body. And it's a weird thing because, like,
14:56
It's so complex a relationship someone can have with their form. I run and I love what it does for me. But then there's been times throughout my life where I've hated being so skinny and it's bothered me. But then you get to the point where you just make peace and it's like... This is me. Yeah, it does so much for me. Like I can't... It's beyond just what it looks like and what I perceive other people to think it looks like. I mean you can reach all the shells. Yeah, I can also bang my head on the wall. Oh no, yeah that's true. But you know...
15:24
You can't take the rough with the smooth. But yeah, in general to me, when I'm sculpting the female form, it's quite self-reflective and it doesn't feel sexualized because that's not how I'm feeling at the time, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, so you're not like putting it into the work. No, I'm not putting it into the work, but if I am putting it in the work, I can put it in the work, and I'm not afraid to put it in the work. Okay, interesting. So what experiences have you had sharing your work online?
15:53
Have you experienced any censorship? Oh yes, yes. I think both my accounts are semi-shadow banned. I know for a fact my clear life one was, as we discussed at the, how we started this whole thing, because of an areola. So it wasn't actually the nipple, it was the skin around the nipple. And was this on a person or was this on a- So it was a photograph of a pregnant woman as well. Right. So even more disgraceful that this got taken off Instagram, to be honest.
16:23
where it was just a frontal shot of a pregnant woman holding her belly and she had flowers around her nipples and obviously the flowers were not covering her areola, just her nipples. Right, and what happened? They took it down? Yeah, they took it down. And was there any justification? Sent me a warning. Well, I did ask for feedback and they said it was because of the areola. That's right. Yeah, I thought they had different rules about pregnant women. Well, that's what I thought. I just didn't want to contest it because it's like, it's one of those things like...
16:51
I feel like once you start fighting with Instagram or Facebook, then you're fighting like an unbeatable battle. I think that's what I've been doing. Yeah, so I've just, I've no, I've just, well, that's it. I didn't want to get pushed further down. I was like, I know they've given me slap on the wrist and I just have to take it even though they're wrong. And it's completely ridiculous. I was just like, you know what? I'm not, I'm not out here trying to tell Instagram that they're wrong because they don't, they don't want to hear that. Yeah, me neither with this podcaster.
17:18
Yeah, I mean let's talk about it though, right? It's like something that needs to be said. I definitely want to raise awareness of people's experiences with this though. Yeah. Because I feel like, you know, if I was to go to someone like that with an army of conversation with a lot of artists, it might have more weight to it than our own individual sort of battles. And I'll get onto a few more things related to this in a bit too. But...
17:44
Do you think there's any justification ever of that censorship that you experienced and censorship in online spaces, for example, in general? I believe if you're gonna do it for one person, you have to do it for another person. If I can see a man's nipples, then what difference is, why are you sexualizing the female nipple? Both are pleasurable parts. Men have their pleasurable nipple parts and women have their pleasurable nipple parts.
18:10
It's just exactly the same as far as I'm concerned. The only difference is that women can feed children from their nipples. What is the end result of specifically not showing women's nipples? Like what impact do you think that has on women and on... Does it keep women in a certain position? Yeah. I've thought about this a lot, like by... It's very restrictive. Because it's like those nipples are sexualised nipples. It's like taboos. It's like your nipples...
18:39
shouldn't exist almost. They're only for a certain purpose. They're only to feed babies or pleasure men. Yeah. Oh well, let's be honest, pleasure yourself. These views are coming from a small group of people in one part of the world, one culture that work in one industry which isn't art, who decide what these rules are and then they send it out to the rest of the world, at least the western world, and impose that on them and I sort of have thought like...
19:08
I wonder what the risk of that is. I mean, I feel like a lot of people have different beliefs, different religions, come from different backgrounds, and it's such a wide scope of opinion that maybe it's just easier for them to be like, no nipples, no vaginas, no penises, but bums are fine.
19:28
See, you said bums are fine and I'm not sure... I think bums are fine, yeah. I've never, I mean, I only post... I'm nervous about bums. No, I've honestly never had, because I read all the guidelines. You're talking about actual human skin bums. Not like from your work. No, human skin bum... Buttocks. Okay, stop. Yeah, I feel like when you say buttocks, there's definitely a risk.
19:52
You can't label it that or it's getting taken down. Oh really? I thought buttocks was like the respectful way of... It sounds worse to me. I don't know why. Is it? It probably isn't. It's just my head. Okay, so this is interesting because when I'm doing the Clay Life sessions, I always start off with the bum, or as I call it in the session, the buttocks. You do? So it's the first place you start with... Why do I think the buttocks sounds like... And I call it the buttocks because I feel like it just sounds correct, like the buttocks, you know? Is that... Maybe you're right.
20:19
To be fair though, when you start using the actual correct, like under some of the correct terms, it sounds more rude to me. I don't know why. But- Is it a buttocks? Yeah, it must be. Yeah, it's not your bum, is it? As long as that's more the cheeks of it. Is the whole thing, it's like your glutes, then it's getting a bit sporty. When you said we're gonna now sculpt the buttocks, I'm like, okay, this is serious business. This isn't a bum. This is not a bum, this is a buttocks. These are buttocks. They've gotta be perfect.
20:50
So how has your experience with friends, family, and outsiders reaction been to your work and your decision to work with the human form and the nude? Oh, I think it's been really supportive. From the start as well? Yeah, from the beginning, especially on my mom's side, there's quite a lot of creatives. Like my mom's a creative as well. Actually, she started doing ceramics too, which is something we now have in common. My cousin's all very creative. My grandma massively creative as well, like painter.
21:19
So I think it just comes hand in hand with being creative, just like this understanding that it does involve the human form and I don't think either of us have ever sexualized it. And in fact, it's so normal in my head to not sexualize nude form in art that I actually never thought of it as. Did you have art in your house when you were growing up? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Was the nudes in the house? I wouldn't say it was like the focal point of my mom's taste in art, but there was definitely, you know.
21:49
Renaissance-esque women in the nude, sort of devil horns or something, you know, burning in hell. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, no, there wasn't a massive amount of nude art in my home, but I wouldn't say that there was none, if you know what I mean. Yeah, it featured. Yeah, it was, it was knackered out. You think this might have had an impact on your view, like, to grow up around it?
22:15
Yeah, it was just a very supportive environment. Like my mum has literally always inspired me to be creative. Honestly, when we were moving house, she must have had like eight massive boxes just full of my art, literally hoarding my art. So she's always encouraged me to do it. And was this in Switzerland? Yeah. The view's sort of different there, would you say? Like are people a bit more open-minded to? That's an interesting question. I would have to say no. I don't think people are that...
22:44
I think it depends where you are in Switzerland. I grew up in a very rural area in Switzerland. It was like a hamlet, absolutely tiny. I wouldn't call it the most creative environment to have grown up in, apart from obviously the fact that I grew up around nature and mountains, which is obviously amazing. And probably the reason why my brain is the way it is, I think they're a bit more closed-minded, especially where I grew up. I always felt like a bit of an outcast. I didn't feel like I fit in.
23:12
In fact, I didn't want to fit in. I found them all to be very normal, and I didn't like that, so I left. That's why I came to Manchester, in the search of creative community, and that's what I found. But obviously it's hard to generalize everyone in Switzerland, and it is a fantastic place, but no, I wouldn't use creative as the way to describe the region I grew up in. So has your choice to work with the nude, nude form
23:42
ever had any impact on current or previous relationships? I don't think so. No. It's always been part of my identity. So you've led with it? Yeah, this is me. Like I sculpt naked people and that's it. End of story. It's a great way to be. Yeah. No bullshit. You're either here for it or you're not. And if you're not here for it, then you're really not worth my time. Yeah. I can relate to that for sure. So do you think people's views about your work have been shaped by the rules that
24:12
social media companies impose through their algorithm. So do you think the way, the structure of the algorithm, the way it's made? Like have I gone viral yet? No. Should I have gone viral yet? Probably. Do you think it would even be possible with the style of work you do? I don't know. I just don't know. I mean, I know a lot of very successful online platforms that do do nude art. I have noticed that some of them won't give their pieces nipples though, or like distinctive genitals.
24:40
So these are artists? Yeah, I mean, it's hard to generalize because I try, I do have a few people I follow that I respect immensely, but I don't really tend to use Instagram as a platform to find too many artists. I sort of use it as a platform to promote myself. And if I do come across an artist I like, obviously, bang, get a follow. But I find it quite overwhelming and I find it quite easy to start sort of comparing your success to other people's success.
25:09
So I do try to sort of like have a bit of distance between allowing myself to go to that place that might not necessarily be great for me. I think, you know, mental health and Instagram is a massive thing and you need to know what's okay and what's not. And I think it's tricky to sort of stop yourself from comparing yourself to people who are doing really well. Yeah, and also that doing really well on Instagram.
25:37
doesn't always necessarily relate to skill or... There are various things, there are various reasons why someone might have 100,000 followers, but you may have more, you know, just for example, you may have more skill than they have. You may be more technically... Not according to Instagram. Yeah, but there's a lot of, you know, there was this timing involved where someone started doing it years ago as well. Yeah, exactly. You know, there's a lot of... I did get, it took me a while to wrap my head around Instagram.
26:04
You know what the biggest thing for me, it was like that first post that I did. I remember it's just like it's literally like putting a part of your soul on a platform for people to like or ignore, and it's just the most bizarre thing. Don't you think it's just crazy? I mean, I've definitely been on a journey with it, but because of the shadow banning, I've definitely taught myself to get more pleasure out of what I do for me, like I'm really focused on the process because I'm like,
26:34
the end result is not relevant, especially in the month, because I feel like I'm learning right now. I've slightly diverted my career to doing photography. So I'm learning to retouch and get better, doing that and how I wanna be a bit more digital-arty with it, but I'm still a beginner in the grand scheme of things. So I'm just letting myself enjoy the process of being a beginner and not being like, throw it out and then you wait and you're like, what do people think? It's like six likes and that's, and then you think, well, that's it.
27:01
I mean crap, no one's ever gonna love me. And I've got six likes. Yeah, it's because like a nipple in a video in the background of something like last November, you can't get past that. And it's like, it's not related to anything to do with your work, you know? I mean, it sucks, like. And you've got to enjoy it at the end of the day. Well, a lot of the work that I make, I do have it in the back of my head. Like what would people wanna see me make? And then for example, for this piece that I did here, like it is literally.
27:29
my favorite piece I've ever made and what I had in mind. I really wanted to push the boundaries of hand-building clay further than I ever had before. But at the same time, I wanted to let go, have fun, and stop thinking about what people wanted to see online. And I didn't film any of the process, and I just had fun. I immersed myself in the piece. Obviously, I had my creative block with it, which was really horrendous.
27:59
But when I let go of that and reminded myself of why I was doing the piece, honestly, it felt like I was 18 again, like I'm 28, just for context. And it felt like such a revelation. And I think that's probably why it's one of my favorite pieces as well. Like, the hurdle it took me to get through, like, all these sort of imposter syndrome moments. And also probably like this block that Instagram's put in my head to think that...
28:27
You need to record everything you're doing, people need to see it, but actually art's a really personal process and it should be my right to keep that to myself. And it does suck when you put a lot of yourself into something and you put it online and yeah, you get six likes and it's like, right, I'm failed, I'm a failed artist. Yeah, and you're doing that during the process of making it as well. So like, if you were to be documenting it as you're making it and you're not getting good feedback, or you're...
28:55
for whatever reason it's not going out, that's gonna be disheartening for you, isn't it? Even in the process of making it, you're gonna be like, well, are people engaging with this? I think that's why a lot of people give up these days, to be honest. Yeah, because if you don't reach that bar, what's the point in not achieving anything? So there's just no point in doing it. I need validation kind of thing. Yeah, it's all or nothing. But the problem is that's taking over what can be, I suppose, a hobby even. People don't wanna do this stuff as a hobby. If it's not successful in that, either Instagram or financially, there's this view of what's the point.
29:25
And that's a shame, I suppose, you know? Well, yeah, I feel like a lot of people, as they grow older, lose their creative side. Like a lot of clients that I have come into clay life, they're like, oh, you know, I've not actually touched clay since I was 14 or even younger. I'm just so nervous at everything I can do it. I'm just like, eh, calm down, it's okay. Like, let's just have some fun. Because you get older and it's like, oh, you've got bills to pay, you've got a job to go to, you've got...
29:51
I'm old, and she's got this, that, and the other. It's like, oh, I don't actually have the mental capacity to be creative right now because society's made it hard. Like, let's be honest, it's not easy being old or getting older. You do lose touch. Was that pressure to stop playing and stop messing about as well? Which is, I remember, like, I used to do a lot of short films as a cinematographer, and there was one of my friends would occasionally act in these things, you know?
30:16
You're just having fun, right? Yeah, we just hit our mid-twenties and I said, oh, do you fancy doing this thing on the weekend? And he was like, oh no, I can't do that stuff anymore. Like, I'm past that now. Like, I've got to stop fucking around and just get, you know, concentrate. And I'm like, I was like, Let's play, let's have some fun, yeah. Come on, I didn't push him on it. I was like, if you don't want to do it, you don't want to do it. But in my head, I was like, what's life about if you're not having a bit of off time and like playing? And I think that's if you can, obviously, if you can make that playing into your job.
30:42
It's not all play, it's all fun all the time. It's stressful. There are moments where I'm like, I'm a god! But then you end up with amazing pieces like this, which is super rewarding, I suppose. You sort of answered the question I was going to ask, but when you make your art more personal to you, it seems to have more value to you. It seems like more worth doing than when you're focusing too outwardly on what the people want.
31:06
My work's not very conceptual. If I'm going to be honest, everyone's like, what's the concept? I'm like, what do you think the concept is? Because I have got no clue. I love this. This is so good. You make me feel so not alone. No, no, there's literally no concept. Like I've just lost my brain. Like I've gone mad for a little.
31:28
a few weeks there and something's happened, not sure what it is, but here it is. What do you think? It's like a trip. Yeah. Well, kind of an introspective trip. Yeah. Let's say that. Is it also forming as you go? Yeah. I never plan my pieces unless it's a commission where a client has said specifically, I want this. I don't plan at all. I just let the case speak for itself. Because I tend to plan with what I'm doing, but then it goes.
31:57
out the window. Oh no, yeah. Once you've shot something. It's got its own direction, yeah. You know, which as a cinematographer, I just shoot the thing and I give it away, but when I'm shooting as a stills photographer, it's like you sort of seeing it all the way through. I guess you have to plan a bit though with what you do because it's sort of... Yeah, you need to plan the shoot. Yeah. But then things happen on the shoot that then change the direction of where it's going in post. That's how it seems to work for me. I mean, in this film industry, you make a plan so you can throw it out the window. So on the day, I just don't lose.
32:26
When I get there and my creative brain's gone, I actually have somewhere to work from. But most of the time you're just like, well, we're not doing that. Like we're doing this. Yeah, you've got to think on your feet, right? Yeah, and because you've got a plan, you're able to. But if you have nothing, I'm just usually like, oh God, I've got to make it all up. You know, I know I've got that thing to fall back on, so it just gives you peace of mind.
32:46
We're looking for figurative artists, photographers, models, and activists. If you'd like to be a guest on Art vs the Algorithm, reach out to us on our social channels at Art vs Algorithm. And let's chat.
33:02
Do you hope that your work will contribute to the conversation about the body and society? Yeah. And in our culture? I mean, most of my sculptures are of plus-sized women, and I think all bodies are beautiful. And I think plus-sized bodies are gorgeous. And especially sculpturally, I just find them interesting. And I want someone to look at one of my pieces of a plus-sized woman and think, wow, she's got a beautiful body. And I want to celebrate that.
33:32
I don't like to portray a bigger figure in a negative way because I want it to translate. I want my thoughts to translate into someone else's head who might have body conscious images themselves or someone who might be like, oh, I don't like plus size women. Maybe they'll see that and be like, oh, that's actually quite a realistic but equally beautiful figure. I mean, I hope it positively impacts people.
34:02
But any impact your art has on someone, positive, negative, is a success, to be honest. Do you want to hear about it as well? Yeah, I mean, I'm always open for discussion and I'm always interested to hear what people think of my art, but I don't really mind too much about hearing it. It's not at the forefront of what I'm doing. I just like to do it, and so I do. Yeah.
34:26
That makes a great point. I mean, it's what it boils down to. If you want to talk to me about it, like, let's do it, but I'm not seeking conversations with people about, like... No. What do you think? Yeah, like, what do you think? No, it's just... Well, it feels to me like you've got things in the right order and that you're doing it for you at the end of the day. Which I feel like, if you can't, as an artist, if you're not doing it for you, then you're not going to be doing it for very long. Because you're the one who has to sit with yourself for hours on end doing this thing.
34:55
It's a whole thing. A lot of Neenah time. Yeah, if you're doing it for some external reason, I think it's hard to drive yourself, isn't it? I mean, to be from my experience. I think to be an artist, you have to be absolutely bonkers. I think you have to be obsessed with what you're doing, and it's like the best thing to be obsessed about, but also like equally soul-destroying at the same time. Yeah. But you can't live without it.
35:22
For sure. And I think it does for an outsider who's maybe not as bonkers, to look inward and see that that obsession involves nudity. That sometimes can be confusing, I think. Okay, yeah. Like from my experience to say, I've spent a lot of time having to justify that craziness, but it's hard to put into words. I've tried to get you to do that, to pinpoint moments why, but I find it really hard to know exactly what it is that drives my...
35:51
desire to... This is your answer. Next time you feel like you have to justify it, just say it's art, darling. Yeah, it's art. It's literally just art. It's literally, it is what it is. It's art. You either get it or you don't. Yeah, it's like, it's not for everyone. Yeah. Well, you can't be everyone's cup of tea. And neither, you know, I wouldn't expect everyone to like my art. I'd say like for me when I was younger, even not too long ago, something I had to overcome was like realizing how much I wanted to be liked.
36:20
how much like therefore I want my work to be liked. And as a cinematographer that made sense. But then I start doing my own photography work where I'm doing something that's maybe a little bit more off piste. Then I realized it's not everyone's cup of tea and it made me feel uncomfortable to be making something that I'm knowing intentionally. Some people would be like, ooh, I don't like that. Or I think- I think it's actually impossible for it to be everyone's cup of tea. And I don't think I ever expected everyone to like my artwork, although it'd be great.
36:49
No, I've never had that expectation, but I have had the expectation of myself to hone in on my craft and own it. I want to be known as Nina. She knew about hand-building, she knew her shit. That's inspiring. Yeah. As a technician. Yeah. She knows exactly what she's doing with that bit of clay and she did it. That's more something I'd say I feel stronger about people.
37:18
understanding that I've spent a very long time working with clay and trying my best to understand it. Yeah, I think that definitely comes through in clay life as well though. Like you come across as someone that knows what you're doing and like is experiencing what you're doing so and I've not seen much of your work but I've just seen the work you put up on clay life which is a lot of the people's work that come to the class. You came across as just being like very knowledgeable and that was the thing.
37:45
I even sent some of my mates who are not all artists, they all come from different, I was just like, I want to see what they think about the artist's class. And one of my mates was just like, whoa, you did that. And I was like, yeah, but the instructor helped me like a lot. You know what, I didn't actually help you that much. You didn't help me a bit. I mean, I helped you a little bit, but barely. Like, my attention was with other people in the room a lot more than it was with you because I noticed that you were comfortable. And where it saw not.
38:11
a problem but where maybe I could help you, I did, but I sort of gave you that information and I noticed you lean into it, you took it on board and you were great with it. Some people were really like intimidated by Clay and I'm like, no, go on, just shove it. I think I was mirroring your confidence. You've got a surety about it. So I was like, I felt more confident doing it because of that. And I think if anyone is considering going to Clay life, then if the person who's guiding is a bit unsure or a bit...
38:40
then I think that you'd feel like that. Like, could be a boob, could be a bum. No, let's get it. It was lighthearted as well, which helps. Like, I think people go into these things thinking like you're going into an exam. It's like, no, this is like a fun thing to do on a Saturday. Everyone's in it for the same reason, you know? I'm going to do a little selfless promotion. So, of the shadow ban, if you do type in clay life on Instagram, it's not going to show up. So, it's claylife.mcr. There you go. Bit of shameless promotion. All one word, clay life.
39:09
claylifeoneword.mcr or lowercase and we should pop up. Yeah, I'll make sure that I put in all of the details of this episode. Oh, thank you. Yeah, so people can know how to get to that. And in your mind, what would open up the opportunity for the most for your art to grow and flourish and your business to grow? What would you think would be the best? Oh, money. It's expensive to be creative, you know, it's actually wild.
39:35
What, like government support or something? I mean, government support would be great. I feel like the biggest thing artists struggle with when they're looking to level up is to find art collectors who have got the right money to spend on their art. Because I was actually having a very interesting conversation with my friend Evita, who was here earlier on. And she's obviously also an artist. And we were talking about pricing points. And we did come to the agreement that I would literally rather not sell my artwork.
40:05
then sell it, undersell it, because that sucks. It really sucks. Definitely. When someone's like, I just don't get why that's so expensive. I was like, well, you know what? You go make it yourself and come back to me three months later. Like, yeah, I'll spend the money. I'll spend the money. No matter how relatable this is to working as a cinematographer, which is I'm not selling a piece of art, but they approach you with the exact same mindset. Well, I think it's the same in literally every creative industry. And I think it's something that every single creative struggles with.
40:35
And I think wealth is an interesting word because everyone's got a different definition of wealth. Like for me, true wealth is happiness. That's what art gives me. There is no high greater than making a piece that you're really proud of and that actually excites you to your very core. Like there is no way I can describe it. It is literally the best feeling in the whole entire world. And that for me is wealth and happiness.
41:03
You're a place where you can't buy that feeling, can you? I mean, no, you can't buy that feeling, but you can sell it for a very... No, I'm just joking. Actually, yeah, you can buy someone else's feeling. No, yeah, you can sell it, no. I mean, obviously, like, you know, she wants to go on holiday, we'd love a good shop. Like, my wardrobe, use a little tweak here and there. And I basically reinvest every single penny I've got back into my business and back into my lifestyle. So...
41:33
Money's great, but so is the feeling making art gives me. Yeah, yeah, and I can totally relate to that feeling that you're talking about. And it's hard to... If you didn't get that feeling, you wouldn't do it, would you? I mean, this is something driving it. And it's like... And I know for me, there's an element of like, you're not going to quit. Stubborn. Yeah, like, stubborn. And some voice in bed like, no, keep going. But then there's the feeling, like when I'm shooting stills, I don't... It's hard to put into words, isn't it, as well? I always find it difficult. It's just like... It's like flow, too. Imagine that.
42:02
state you get into when you're actually making the art. Oh yeah, when you literally leave your body for a minute. And it's like you're just floating around. You know, like two hours passes. Yeah. And you're like, where did the time go? I mean, that only happens when I'm working on a film or photography set. It's the only place it happens to me, or maybe playing sport. It's a magical, magical moment. So you'd be like, oh, four hours has passed, and we just made all this stuff.
42:24
I can't get that doing anything else. I mean, it literally happens to me all the time. Like, I'll be in the studio, it'll be 9 p.m. and then next thing you know, it's 4 a.m. I'm like, shit. If we were to fight back against censorship collectively as artists, how do you think it could be best achieved? I don't know. I think it's more of what they can do on their end. Like, it's difficult because not everyone has access to identification, but like, if they did check ID.
42:54
when someone's logging into a platform like Instagram or TikTok, if you did have to verify yourself with a photo of, I don't know, a driver's license or even a passport, if you had like any form of ID, I think, I think it's more stuff that they can do on their end. And I think they're a bit lazy and therefore they've generalized a whole massive section of life and put a big cross on it. And I don't really know what we could do, to be honest.
43:23
I mean, I'm trying slightly with this podcast. I mean, yeah, I mean, obviously things like this. I'm not saying that's the answer. I'm just like, this is the answer, guys. I'm like, here's the answer. Sliding across the table. Just to make sure they can't see what I'm saying. It's like, oh, it's art versus the algorithm. Maybe we should have like a mass movement where we're all just like.
43:41
fabricate a nipple and whack it on our foreheads and just, I don't even know. Yeah, I'm just intrigued because I feel like collective approach is probably what is necessary of some form. I just don't know what it is, so I'm like, I want to ask people creatives what their ideas are just because there's probably better ideas online. I mean share the love, you know, if you do see, if you see something on Instagram for example of, I don't know, a sculpture of a woman with her nipples out or a photograph of a woman in the nude,
44:10
Share the love, give it a like, share it. Like if you rate it, spread the love, make it more normalized, like de-sexualize it by supporting it. Do you know what I mean? I agree. I think that actually helps a lot. Like even when I'm with, like I do collaborative posts, for example, online, the more people I pull into a collaborative post, the further it goes and that kind of overcomes a shadow ban. You know, pulling a- We can calibrate on this one. We can do some collaborative posts. But no, like things like that definitely help. But also,
44:40
There are a lot of people that look at your work and you see them looking at your work and they never engage with it. And it's like, no one's gonna judge you for engaging with it. You'll actually look quite bold to engage with that work. If you're someone who does engage, does comment, does say things, I think people who are hiding the shadows a bit more will see you've done that and encourage them to do it more and it becomes a bit of a cycle. So I know there's like 50 people that regularly look at my work and don't say anything. And I find that really interesting because I'm obviously creating something that they wanna look at for whatever reason.
45:10
You're stirring some sort of pot. Yeah, and I mean, there's like pleasure in it. There's pleasure in stirring the pot. Not if it's charred and fried, quite, but it almost is like, you know. Well, if you're not stirring some sort of pot, then you're not really doing it right, are you? Let's be honest. No, I can't, yeah, I agree. And I'm like... You've got to ruffle some feathers together. I'm enjoying it. The older I'm getting, the more I'm enjoying ruffling the feathers. I was saying, I was like, eee! Like, I'd never would have... I went to a satire two years ago and talked about this just openly.
45:39
But now I'm like, why am I not talking about this? Why am I not like, it just doesn't- I love that I'm part of this, yeah, great. I'm pleased that you are. But before I was too, I was myself too meek about it, but it's like the further I push, the more, and we do as artists as well, the more it will seem more normal and the more we can pull other people who aren't involved in art of any form with us. I just think that's like, I think that's gonna have more of a collective, I know it's us right now versus Instagram in terms of-
46:08
or art versus the algorithm, but I just think over time, the more people you get, the more pressure you've got, the greater impacts you could have. So why not try? I think interestingly enough as well, maybe artists need to remind themselves, including myself, like this is something that I need to keep reminding myself, that life does not stop and end with an Instagram validation. There are grants you could be applying for, there are opportunities, there are galleries, there are residencies.
46:38
even with social networks. I mean, it depends what you're applying for, but those are not regulated by Instagram. That is of a whole separate world that I feel like Instagram is overshadowed. I'm just like, well, I'll just wait until I go viral so I don't have to do this, don't have to do that. But actually, back in the day, people didn't promote their stuff on Instagram, or Facebook, or whatever. You do exhibitions, and that's still a massive thing.
47:08
Don't just put yourself in this shadow band box because you're in a shadow band box. There is so many ways to get your art out there still. And it is effort, but you know, it's- It's worth the effort if it comes out. And you know, like, often I'll see someone who's got an opportunity that was like, oh, I was thinking of applying to that, but I didn't think I had enough followers. And I'll click on their profile, I'll be like, oh, they only have 200 followers.
47:33
See, these people don't care about how many followers you have, like, or how many likes you get a picture. They've just seen this person's artwork and said, hey, this is amazing, want you to be on board and bang, you've got a great opportunity right there. It's a good pitch for offline spaces too. For sure. I think people need to- But yeah, the world doesn't stop there. It doesn't stop and it doesn't begin there. And yes, it's an amazing platform to put yourself out there, but it's okay. It's just part of the puzzle. It's just part of the puzzle and don't-
48:01
totally limit yourself to that. If it's not working for you, then it's fine. Just move on to other avenues. I think that's a really good way to move on to the end of this podcast, which I've planned to be lighthearted. I want you to pick a body part from a list I've got. Each one corresponds to a question. Once I've asked you that question, it'll create a gap.
48:23
and I'll ask you if you'd be up for putting your own question into that gap, so it's like for next time, someone can go for this multiple choice questioning thing. Let's go. So you've got the choice of head, legs, boobs, bum, or hands.
48:38
I feel like the obvious one would be to say boobs because I do love to sculpt boobs. Well, you've got a good reason for it if that's what you do love to sculpt. Remember when I was trying my own little sculpting of boobs on Saturday, you had some good experienced methodology as to how to go about doing it. Okey dokes. All right, we'll do boobs then. We'll go with boobs. Okay. Would you rather everyone you met saw you in the nude or you saw everyone you met in the nude? I mean...
49:07
As someone who loves to sculpt the human form and how I've never actually really had models to base my art off except for my imagination, I think I'd rather see everyone else in the nude, to be honest. They're like loads of good concepts. Yeah, they're just like all the creative things in my head that I needed. Thank you.
49:29
Yeah, you just feel like your work is just suddenly going through the ceiling with body shapes and body types. Yeah, it would be epic, yeah, for sure. No, definitely, yeah, that's what I'm shooting. Excellent, I love that. And it also has a good reason behind it. So yeah, thank you so much for being on Art vs. Algorithm. Yeah, no worries. I hope you've had fun. This has been a fun chat. Thanks for having me. And also remind me, where can people check your workout? So on Instagram. We'll come back, we'll circle back to Instagram. Just briefly. So it's at...
49:57
VHVK underscore sculpts. That's where my personal practice is. And if you do want to come to a Clay Life session, it's at claylife.mcr. And yeah, we do corporate bookings, not only with nude models, we can do plant pots or whatever, birthday parties, handoes, or general public ticketed events. So any sculpting sort of event, you know where to find me.
50:25
I couldn't recommend it more. I mean, that's why we met. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I couldn't recommend it. But yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, no worries. Art vs. The Algorithm. So, which side are you on? You've been listening to Art vs. The Algorithm, hosted and produced by Will Preissner, music by Ned Wolfgang Kelly, voiceover by Alexia Kombou.
