Ep4 | Finding Empowerment in Front of the Camera - Eowyn Luna
20 January, 2025
Introduction
In Episode 4 of Art Vs The Algorithm, host Will Preisner sits down with Eowyn Luna, an art model whose journey into art nude photography has spanned more than five years. Eowyn shares how she first stepped into the world of modelling, how it has shaped her confidence and personal growth, and the delicate balance of collaboration and creative control when working with photographers. This open and insightful conversation also touches on the nuances of artistic expression, boundaries in art, and navigating societal views on nudity.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone fascinated by the empowering and creative process behind art nude photography.
Eowyn’s Journey into Art Nude Photography
Eowyn’s journey into art nude modelling began in early 2019, when she decided to step outside of her comfort zone and embrace the challenge. “I’d done implied and concealed shots before, but I hadn’t been brave enough to give it a go. Then I thought, I think I want to try this.” Inspired by art models like Ivory Flame, she practiced her poses in front of a mirror to ensure she felt confident when stepping in front of the camera.
Her first art nude shoot took place in a snowy woodland in January with a photographer she had worked with before. Despite the freezing conditions, the experience left her encouraged to continue: “It was scary, but I felt comfortable because I trusted the photographer and myself. We came away with a good handful of images, and I thought, ‘I can do this.’”
Creativity and Control in Art Nude Modeling
Eowyn describes art nude modelling as a creative and collaborative process where she values control over how her body is portrayed. This is one reason she has chosen photography over life modelling, where she wouldn’t have the same creative focus. “In life modelling, people are often in a circle around you, and I like posing for a specific angle. I like being quite specific and having control over how I’m perceived.”
Working with trusted photographers allows Eowyn to explore emotions and narratives in her images. “When you have a rapport with a photographer, it’s easier to step out of your comfort zone because you trust that they know what they’re trying to achieve.”
She emphasises how collaboration grows stronger with time: “You’ve got to get through the beginning bit of a shoot, but when you spend more time together, the photos get better because you’re more in tune with what you want to create.”
The Line Between Art and Sensuality
The conversation also delves into the fine line between art nude and sensual or erotic photography. For Eowyn, this distinction is deeply rooted in intention and trust. “I don’t shoot for the male gaze because I want to create something that is art and makes you feel something - but not something that’s simply about being sexy.”
She explains how subtle changes, like looking directly into the camera, can drastically shift the meaning of a photo: “When you look into the camera, it becomes about engaging the viewer in a way that can feel sensual or intimate. I’m very careful with how I do that because it changes the entire tone of the image.”
Eowyn also touched on how working with experienced photographers like Thomas Holm has allowed her to explore boundaries in a way that feels tasteful and artistic. “It’s about intention. He values art even in the more erotic work he does, which is why I trust him to handle it with care.”
Empowerment and Personal Growth
Art nude modelling has been a powerful journey of self-discovery and confidence building for Eowyn. “When I started, I didn’t really know what I was capable of. Now, I’m more aware of myself, what I want, and who I am. It’s helped me grow as a person.”
Reflecting on her journey, Eowyn describes how modelling has solidified her understanding of herself and her creative abilities: “It’s given me confidence and allowed me to be more in tune with how I want to be portrayed. It’s not just about the photos - it’s about personal growth and empowerment.”
Takeaways for Creatives and Art Lovers
Here are some key insights from Eowyn’s journey into art nude modelling:
- Empowerment Through Art - “It’s helped me grow as a person. I’m more aware of myself, what I want, and who I am.” Art modelling can be a powerful tool for personal growth and confidence building.
- Creative Collaboration is Key - Trust and collaboration with photographers can result in images that push creative boundaries. “When you’re in tune with a photographer, it becomes a more collaborative and rewarding process.”
- Respect Your Boundaries - Eowyn is clear about the boundary between art and sensuality, emphasising that intention matters. “It’s about creating art that makes you feel something - not just something that’s about being sexy.”
- Environment Shapes Openness - Being surrounded by artistic nudity in her childhood helped normalise these elements for Eowyn. “It just normalises it when it’s a part of your environment.”
- Growth Comes from Stepping Outside Your Comfort Zone - Trying art nude for the first time was daunting, but it allowed Eowyn to challenge her fears and build her confidence. “It’s all about putting yourself out there and learning along the way.”
- Intention Changes the Narrative - Subtle changes, like looking into the camera, can shift the tone of an image. “It changes the entire meaning of the photo, so I’m cautious about how I use it.”
Listen to the Episode
To hear more about Eowyn Luna’s artistic journey, her thoughts on collaboration and creative boundaries, and her empowering experiences in art nude modelling, listen to Episode 4 of Art Vs The Algorithm - Finding Empowerment in Front of the Camera – Eowyn Luna at the top of the page or wherever you get your podcasts. Don’t forget to follow or subscribe to support the podcast and hear more inspiring stories from creatives who are challenging norms and algorithms.
Ready to hear more? Tune into this and other great episodes of Art Vs The Algorithm here.
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Episode Transcript:
00:00
Before we get into the episode, please do me a favour and hit the follow or subscribe button wherever you're listening to the podcast. You'll be actively helping our community to grow and for us to reach more people, and it allows us to get great new guests on for future episodes. Art vs. The Algorithm with Will Preisner.
00:34
Okay, can you take me back to the starting point to you as an Art Nude model, specifically for photography? How did it all begin and was there a particular event or experience that drew you towards it? I think I, I don't know, it was the start of 2019 I first did Art Nude for the first time. There had been a photographer that I'd worked with a couple of times before who I really liked the style of and I think he'd expressed an interest in doing
01:04
more art nude stuff, but not specifically with me, because it's not something I'd said that I wanted to do yet. But then I was like, you know what? I think I want to give it a go. Because I'd done sort of like implied and concealed stuff. I feel I hadn't yet been, hadn't been brave enough to kind of go like the full way and give it a go. But there'd been so many models that I come across during my time when I first started as a model that I, like straight away I was like, that looks really cool. I don't know if I'd ever do that, but it looks awesome. And I kind of like, I love the way that-
01:34
There's a couple of models in particular, Ivory Flame is one who's like a big inspiration. And I just like, I love the way that she can just kind of like shape her body in a way that's just like, so it's just really, really aesthetic. Paired with the style of photography, if it's like shadowy, there's like beautiful tones and colors. And I was like, I think I just want to give it a go. I don't think there was any particular event that like prompted me to try it out. I think it was just.
02:02
I've kind of got to a point where I kind of know how I would do it well, because I wanted to make sure that I did it well, like I was practicing poses in front of the mirror, because I didn't want it to look like I didn't know what I was doing. I needed that sort of confidence to just kind of go for it. And you were bouncing off the fact that you'd already done some modeling before. Yeah, because I did, I think I'd been modeling for maybe a year, one and a half maybe before I started doing art nude. So it was like...
02:31
I kind of knew how to kind of shape my body in a way that would work for Art Nude. And even now, when I do fashion stuff, I find myself posing in a way that would suit Art Nude. Just because I'm like, I know how to shape my body, like to kind of get like an S-curve. Even when I'm wearing like a skirt that's like really wide and you can't actually see like the shape of my hips or like the way that my toes are pointing or whatever, I still...
02:57
that go on like my tiptoes and stuff if I'm wearing like a big poofy dress, which makes no sense because it's like, oh, you can't see. But I feel like I stand just like straight. I'm like, that's not very aesthetic. But then, yeah, it wouldn't be maybe aesthetic as an art nude image, but I'm wearing a dress. Doesn't matter. It's just like a practice to keep it up, you think? I suppose so. Maybe it does make a bit of a difference, even if it's like the slightest angle change or something. As well as you are the kind of like...
03:23
hanger for that clothes to sit on. So if that hanger's in the right angle, then it's probably going to show the clothes. I hadn't even thought about that. Yeah. Sorry, I don't mean to reflect you as a coat hanger. I know exactly what you mean because it's like, I guess that's what fashion modeling is though. It's letting the clothes sit on you in a way that is aesthetic.
03:46
maybe it's a step up from a coat hanger because obviously that's why you, that's why there are, if you could take a good picture on a coat hanger every time then we wouldn't need models for like fashion. There's a reason because it kind of sits nicely on the body but yeah I know what you mean it's like you've got to kind of stand in a way that it kind of falls in a nice way in which case the clothes are just on you like a hanger. Yeah you have to have an awareness between the link between the two. So that photographer that you'd worked with already
04:16
that had already done some Art Nude stuff, it was him that you then did the first shoot with. Yeah, yeah. And how did that go? It was all right, actually. It was probably the entirely wrong time of year to do it, because it was in January, and I think it had snowed the day before, so it was thawing. It was cold and frosty. Was it outside? Yeah, yeah, in the woods, because I was like, that's kind of like, when I think of Art Nude, that's kind of the first thing I think of, is sort of in nature, like Art Nude in nature and in the landscape.
04:46
I guess I didn't really think about it. Obviously now, now that I've got more experience, I'd probably be like, God, I shouldn't have done that. I should have done a really nice warm studio or something or during summer, because it was cold. But he very kindly bought me some really nice, warm, fluffy socks, which I still have. They are falling apart because they're quite old at this point, but they're very good socks. And I'm very grateful because it was cold.
05:12
But I think because it was just kind of a giving it go, the first shoot, it was all right if we didn't end up with a million amazing images. I think we came away with like a good handful, which I was really happy with, because with it being my first new shoot, it was nice to get a good selection, knowing that it's like, ah, oh, there are a good few. I'm actually okay at this. It wasn't like a waste of time. I don't think I would have minded if I'd only got one or two images from it, because with it being my first go. And how did you feel like?
05:40
that first time you were doing it, obviously the first time you kind of like revealed yourself in front of the camera, what were you thinking at the time? I don't actually remember. I remember not feeling uncomfortable because it is very exposing, like especially for like the first time you do it. It's like not that they were a stranger because I'd worked with them before this photographer, but to suddenly take my clothes off in front of someone like in a way that like.
06:08
They've never seen me like that before. Yeah, I guess it was scary, but I felt comfortable. And I guess because I trusted the photographer and I trusted myself in what I was doing because I'd seen it done really well and kind of knew the sort of shapes I wanted to make with my body. It was scary, but I didn't feel uncomfortable. So that inspiration that you'd had previously from other models kind of helped you feel confident.
06:36
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I was like, this is how they would do it. So I'll give that a go. Yeah. Amazing. You've been a new model for over five years now. Messages to ask on one. Yeah. What is it that keeps you wanting to do it? I think it's like, there's almost no limit to what you can do. Even though when you think about it, it's like, there's only so much I can do with my body and it's not as if I can wear a million different.
07:05
closed for different looks. It's just a blank canvas. But I guess that's part of it. It's like it's being a blank canvas and kind of adapting to different situations. Like, yeah, being in the woods, being, not like I've been in a tree. I don't know why that came to my head. I've never been in a tree. I guess I'm hung from a tree. I think I might have made you hung from a tree once. You sat on a tree. I have hung from, I don't know, I haven't been in a tree. I've sat maybe on tree trunks. I've like hung from trees. But yeah, I'm like, I love just...
07:34
trying different things. And there's so much you can do with lighting and angles and tones. Even like little things like wearing my hair up or having it down makes a big difference to just the shape of, and it's just like the feeling that you have when you look at an image. I think, yeah, so I guess I keep doing it because there's so much, there's endless opportunities and I feel like there's always different, there's always more things to explore. Like what I can do, what I can create.
08:03
And I just, yeah, I love creating the art, I guess, essentially. And you're passionate about that side of it. Yeah, absolutely. It's all, I guess, just about art and creating something that draws someone in that looks cool, that just looks beautiful, I guess. What was it that drew you to modeling nude for photography, like primarily over other mediums or like life modeling or something like that? I mean, I have thought about doing life modeling. I think what puts me off about
08:32
life modeling is more often than not, everyone's in a circle around. And the way that I've kind of gone into art nude modeling is I am posing for a very specific point. Like if the camera's there, I'm going to angle myself in a way that I know looks right for where the camera is. But in my head, I'm like, if people are completely around me from every angle, I could do a pose that looks right for one person, but looks really weird. Well, maybe in my opinion.
09:02
doesn't really suit the way I want my body to be seen from a different angle, or I could do a pose that maybe exposes a bit too much. Plus I think life modeling actually pays less than my rate as an art new model. I might give it a go at some point, but for whatever reason, that just really scares me that it's in 360 most of the time. I know some are maybe in like a half circle, which I think I might be okay with, but even then it's like I could be posing in a way that the person right at the corner maybe gets a bit of a weird angle.
09:32
But that's my own subconscious, I think, getting in the way of that, because I shouldn't have to pose in a certain way just for one angle to look good. I should be OK with how my body looks just in general from different angles. But I guess the way that I've gone into it for photography, I like being quite specific. And I think I wouldn't be able to be as specific if I tried like life modeling. So you like that creative control side of it?
10:00
Yeah, I guess so. I like having control over what, how I'm perceived. I've definitely seen when I've worked with you, where I've been giving, trying to direct you, and there's been times where you're, I can see by your facial expression that you're questioning my direction. Oh, okay. I'm a bit like, why am I doing this? Is that going to work? Yeah, like, but then I suppose you do eventually come around to it because, I mean, hopefully you trust me. Yeah, I was going to say. And then there's like, direct you in a...
10:30
emotional direction as well, and like that kind of, like with your facial expression, with your body, and also how that relates to the framing and the lighting and the mood of the photo. So I suppose that's like something that when you work with someone that you know, and that you've built a collaboration with, then you can build that trust to kind of be like, well, maybe I can be a little bit out of my comfort zone. Yeah, I think, I think, Mea, that is a good point. It's when you're used to the way that someone works, and you know that they kind of, they know what they want to achieve as well.
11:00
I can more easily trust if you're kind of a bit like, can you turn more this way? Can you put that leg in front instead? Because I'm like, okay, you kind of know that that's probably gonna be, that's gonna work for what we're going for. I suppose if someone's maybe a newer photographer, I might be a bit more hesitant, posing it in a way that I, in my head, I'm like, I don't think that is quite as flattering for what we're going for. Because maybe they don't really know quite what they're trying to achieve. But yeah, when you've got like a rapport and understanding between a photographer, it's...
11:30
It's easier to kind of become more collaborative and understanding of what both of you want to achieve, rather than just like what I think is going to work. Yeah, yeah. But it takes time to build though. And also there's plenty of times where I'll ask you to do something and it's like, no, no, no. You know, it's like a thought. But it's worth trying, you know, and then you learn from it and grow. I mean, as a song from it, not like saying you learn from it. For me, if I don't try that, I won't learn how.
11:58
you'll look best for the certain scenarios that we're going for. And then the more I learn, the more of a collaborative experience it is and the better the images are going to get, I feel. Yeah, yeah. And also, like, when we manage to spend more time together, that's when we get to better photos, in my opinion. But you've kind of got to get through the beginning bit. No, yeah. It can actually take a while to warm into a shoot sometimes.
12:23
Like it feels, it's kind of exciting when you do a shoot and you take one image and it's like, well, we're on a roll already. But sometimes it like more often than not, that is a rare thing that you have in full force from the very beginning. Like you often need a little bit of time to warm up to like the tone and what you're actually going for and what you're trying to achieve. Especially if you're trying something different with like lighting and stuff, because that's a lot of experimentation. We've done pretty well with the live stage shoots to be able to like roll straight in. I know, yeah. But then sometimes it's also good to just put yourself under pressure.
12:53
That's the thing about the live stage thing. It's live. So you're modeling live and I'm photographing live. So you have to deal with the pressure and just get on with it. So it wasn't me cover up those times where I asked you to do something that doesn't quite work out. And then go, oh, everyone, it's fine. We're just going to do something different. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Even though I spent five minutes trying to set this up and it didn't work. But you've got to do it. You live and learn. Oh, yeah, of course. So from the start till now.
13:21
and kind of emotionally what you get out of it. Does this feed into your personal growth and has there been any development emotionally in terms of how you feel from the first time you started shooting art nudes, or like now? Yeah, I guess it's more solidified in my head or I'm getting more aware of just myself and how I want to be and who I am and my confidence, definitely. Like, yeah, my confidence especially has grown. And I guess going back to kind of having control.
13:50
I suppose, at least knowing what I want from something. That's built up a lot since starting Art Nude, because I was probably very, even before I started doing modeling in general, very reserved and kind of not really sure what I wanted or what I was capable of. So yeah, definitely it has helped me grow as a person and kind of understanding of myself. So when you first started out as a nude model, how was the reaction of your family and friends?
14:20
Tell us about your relationships. I mostly had a positive reaction. I had like, I'd recently gotten out of a relationship with someone who wasn't comfortable with me doing art news. So that's when I'd just done some like topless and concealed stuff. So I hadn't really ventured in much further than that. But yeah, when I did start, I didn't really have any issues. I had one friend who wasn't even comfortable with me shooting lingerie. So we kind of had a bit of a...
14:50
I guess not falling out because it was a very short sort of she wasn't happy with what I was doing. And I was like, OK, well, sorry, I'm doing it. And then we just kind of drifted apart and we kind of still occasionally see each other. But it's like we just don't talk about what I do because I don't want to kind of open up kind of worms. Like, I don't know if she knows that I do do art nude because she kind of fell out when I first did Norge Ray. And I'm sure she unfollowed me.
15:19
hasn't really seen what I've done. Do you have any inkling as to why that might be the case? Religion. Oh, right, okay. Interesting. Yeah, just the body in that state is only meant to be seen by a marriage. Is that in Christianity? Interesting. That's not an angle I've ever really considered. Really? Okay. I probably should have done. Well, I guess it's just if you're not, it's maybe just from different world, like people who maybe engage in your life aren't.
15:48
as strong in those beliefs, so you just don't think about it because you're not necessarily surrounded by those sorts of people. But yeah, yeah, it was a shame because she was like one of my best, best friends from when we were growing up. So it was quite sad that she was like, I can't support you in what you're doing when it was just due to religion, like reasons and such strong, strong opinions. But that is pretty much the only issue I've had. And like since then, like
16:17
I had Thomas Holm come and shoot with me in the lakes. And like, he met my mom and he has this book and they were looking through it together and she was like, oh, oh, that's amazing. Oh, and you're going to go out and shoot some stuff too. And she was like, we don't really talk about the fact that I do do art nude, but she's like supportive of it without talking about it because she kind of like, she understands the art behind it. Like she even, we even have in the home that I grew up in, she painted Botticelli in the.
16:46
bathroom. So we just have like a massive mural of Botticelli, the Venus painting, is that what it's called? In the bathroom. So I guess I grew up looking at that. And like, she's already open to sort of like the art side of it. Never talked about it with my dad. I have no idea what he thinks or if he knows. Maybe they talk about it and it's just kind of like swept under because he's quite a traditional man. And I don't know what his opinion would be.
17:16
We've never talked about it. I guess similarly with my brother, we've never talked about it. I don't know what he knows, how much he knows. It's just one of those awkward conversations I feel like I never want to have. I have so many follow-on questions. What do you? First of all, does it bother you in any way that you're not able to be open about it with your... With your family, with some part of your family? Or you don't feel comfortable to do it? Would you rather? I don't think it really bothers me.
17:44
It's not something that I need to always talk about. Because I'm just a creative in general, it's not kind of like I'm, I don't feel like I'm hiding anything because I just don't really talk about it. Like they know that I'm a model and stuff and it's all creative. And because I'm a creative in general, it's like they kind of know I'm in that world. And I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything really by not talking about it because I don't think I need to really. Not that it's like something I need to hide. And you said that, you know, you mullet the painter in the bathroom.
18:13
Do you think that that being in the bathroom, being around that when you were younger, influenced your kind of openness to it? Well, maybe. Maybe like a subconsciously I was like more okay with the naked body in a way, like subconsciously because I guess I hadn't actually even thought about it. But yeah, maybe that's it. Part of why I felt more comfortable with it. I was used to it and it wasn't like, it wasn't filled with any shame. Yeah.
18:41
I mean, you're sitting in the house that I grew up in right now. And my dad, like, I've only been here for a few months, but my dad rehung the pictures that I was in the house when I was a kid. And you can see from the pictures in here why, I mean, I was a bit like, well, this makes sense, why I shoot right. And then when I told my sisters about what I did, both of them were like, didn't bar an eyelid. You know, and for me, I was like, my sisters were like, my litmus test for like, am I doing the right thing?
19:11
So, you know, and I told them, they were just like, oh cool, and I was like, oh, we grew up in the same house, like, we have the same upbringing. So it figures that it was obviously statues as well, you say, like, statuettes. There's all around the house, there's stuff like that. So I feel fortunate that I had that personally, because I think that led me into being more open-minded to get to where I am. It just normalises it. It's like the environment you've grown up in, obviously will affect kind of like your opinions and how you feel about things.
19:41
in the future. So what's been the range of experiences that you've had on photo shoots, both positive and negative? Are there any particular memorable experiences? Oh, we were going to shoot in a field and it was a lovely environment. It was a really nice, aesthetically pleasing hill in this field and we had to walk through a field with some horses who seemed very chill at first.
20:07
Very much so. They were kind of like on the other side of the field. I'd already photographed these horses as well. So you were kind of aware that... I'd been in the field on my own many times. Yeah, it had been fine in the past. They completely ignored me the entire time. And for whatever reason, when we went through, they just started approaching. The farmer shouted. Oh, true. That was the trigger point. Okay, right. Yeah, and then they kind of were like, oh, something's wrong then, I guess. And it all kind of got heated.
20:35
And they started approaching, not in a nice way. Yeah, they kind of like ganged up. It was very intimidating. They were like, hang on, you shouldn't be here, I guess. You're not supposed to be here. You're not our farmer or whatever. And yeah, it felt scary at the time. I mean, I suppose looking back, it was probably just a bit silly. Yeah, I don't know, something about the air just changed. It felt like there was this tension in the air. The farmer had wound the horses up.
21:05
But before the farmer yelled, they didn't give a damn about us. I think they were just mirroring that emotional state or something. But that shot me up because I was like, I was worried as like bloody hell, like you've come on a shoot and the horses nearly killed us both. But we got out. And remember one of them kicked, as I got out, or you got out, one of the horses kicked the other horse. Yeah, and it was like really near by the time we, well, yeah, it was very nearest by the time we got out. It was about a meter away from my head that kick. I was like, oh my God.
21:35
It didn't make me want to shoot in that field ever again, I'll be honest with you. Yeah. But have there been any other experiences that you've had that have positive or negative? Well, there was one shoot that the photographer was adamant that we shoot in some Ox-eye daisies. But the only patch of Ox-eye daisies that he knew near where we were shooting was on the grounds of this hotel, which was like a private land. And he was like, well, I've shot here before. It's fine.
22:05
shoot and then leave and it'll be fine. And I was like, I was really wary from like the get-go and but he was like really, really adamant and he's got this sort of, this photographer's got a very like sort of air of confidence, he's got quite a bit of an ego so he was like because he thought we would be okay, we were just going to do it. Like not that I said no and he was like well no we're doing it. I did say yeah sure because I was like I guess I trust that it's going to be fine. He shot here before, it's fine. And we went in.
22:33
And there was a gardener there at the time and he like had spoke to him. He was like, if I give, I think he literally gave him like five pounds or 10 pounds or something. And he was like, can we just do a little quick, quick shoot in the little field of oxide daisies? And the gardener was like, okay. So we were like, okay, we've got someone's permission. Fair enough. And yeah, we just started and then I could see some movement from like the edge of the hotel. And then.
23:03
slowly I saw someone approaching and I was like, someone's coming over. So I like, luckily because we were in like tall oxy-daisies, I had like boots and like my clothes at my feet. So I just quickly like, I could crouch down basically and like pull it up. And I kind of like saw the person approaching the photographer, it was a little further away from me. And I think that it was just a bit like, obviously I've been seen because I'm like, the oxy-daisies were kind of on the edge of not being in there like peak.
23:33
So they weren't like as tall, because the Oxidases can be really tall, but they were kind of, they were just maybe to like my hips perhaps. So it was like my whole top half would have been exposed. And if someone was by the hotel, they would have just seen me, just like just me imagining, imagine me just like in the middle of like a big field of Oxidases just naked. And this is just like a private, yeah, private space. And I felt uncomfortable from the beginning. I was like, what if someone sees, we could literally.
24:02
I don't know, I mean, you can't be arrested, but... If we were told to leave and we didn't, then they could call the police and stuff, so I was just like, we just need to leave. We did end up getting, I think I saw two pictures from that shoot and they were great and we got an FBI front page image on Purple Port with one of them and it was a very good image and I'm glad that we got it, but I feel like in my head I can't remember shooting anything good then because it was so quick, like me noticing a person and then them moving slowly like...
24:32
towards us and shoving my clothes on and just leaving. Well, at least it ended well. Well, yeah, I guess that's it. No one called the police. Like, no, no repercussions, as far as I'm aware. I guess they wouldn't know how to track us down. Yeah. I think as well, possibly the fact that you were nude, it sidetracks people. It's like they don't really, they're so shocked by it, but they don't really know how to handle it to start with. It bought us a few extra seconds to get this shot.
25:01
Yeah, because they're embarrassed. They're more embarrassed than you are. Because they have to approach someone who's like nude and be like, you know, and have the confidence to tell them off, which is not an easy thing to do when it's not expected, you're not geared yourself up for it. Because they're the odd one out in that scenario. So it's quite... I think also the photographer had a little stepladder so he could get like more of a above angle. So that probably looked even more bizarre. It was probably only like a small little stepladder, but...
25:30
I mean, there's probably some of the guests that just didn't mind at all, I'm sure. True. Fascinating story to tell for them. You know what I saw today. I mean, I've been on shoots where people have come across us or someone's definitely seen. And, you know, there's one shoot where someone was looking and I was like, to the model, I was like, I think we should stop because, you know, and she was like, I really don't care. Some models are like that. They'll just happily.
25:57
run around naked when there's people around. And I was like, I know there are some people out there on the street, because the whole street could see. I was like, they probably are enjoying this view, but I was like, I'm doing a public service, really. There was one time, I guess a similar sort of situation when I was shooting with Thomas Holm in the lakes with another model as well, Tanya Oresti, and I didn't realize we kind of had shoved ourselves on a cycle path, which is obviously the way you should shoot on a cycle path.
26:25
Because, but anyway, yeah, there was a point when I noticed a couple of cyclists coming over because it was, I think it was the summer, but it's the north, it was cold I think. So I did have like a big jacket. And I, there's a picture I think somewhere that I think Thomas Holm took where I was basically sheltering the other model with my coat, so I was sheltering us both and I was facing away, but it looks, because I was holding the coat out like this, it's a shot of me from behind holding the coat like this and from like behind.
26:54
me and in front of the other model just at the edge of this cycle path but because of the way the picture is taken it looked like I was like flashing her or something. It's like the weirdest. But yeah I was doing that as like these cyclists we've got the person like we wonder what they're thinking. What do they think we're doing these like two naked women and this guy with a camera. It's a story like you said I mean.
27:19
At least you never guess what we saw today. Exactly, yeah. But I shouldn't shoot on a cycle path. That's just irresponsible. Well, I didn't know it was a cycle path. I'm saying no, but I've done some things I probably wouldn't actually talk about on the podcast in terms of taking risks. Not with health and safety, just more like, with are people going to see? Yeah, I've definitely stood on the edges of something where people could probably definitely see me. But it was like, it's for the shot.
27:49
it's for the art. If you know the context why we're doing this, then you'd be like, okay, that's pretty cool. But I suppose if you just see some naked woman standing on the edge of a cliff or whatever, you might be like, are you okay? Do you need help? Especially if it's windy, because I've done shoots where it's been really nice and atmospheric. My hair's going all over the place and I'm just stood on the edge of a cliff or whatever. And then I imagine if anyone sees this, I'm like, do you need some help?
28:21
We're looking for figurative artists, photographers, models, and activists. If you'd like to be a guest on Art vs the Algorithm, reach out to us on our social channels at artvsalgorithm. And let's chat.
28:37
Have you ever felt objectified or exploited during a photo shoot? I think I've been pretty lucky with the sort of people that I've worked with. I generally haven't had any sort of issues like that. I guess the place that you might come across people that might kind of have a different view of how you want to be shot and stuff is when you do like a group shoot or maybe a studio day when you don't really know who's booking on or like workshop events and things. Like I've done a couple where like I might come across a
29:06
particular photographer who doesn't really know how to talk to you and doesn't really know how to look at you. If they haven't shot nude before, they're not used to seeing like a naked woman in that way. Maybe they don't know where to look. Right, I see. But yeah, there's the odd person who maybe, if maybe they're newer or maybe they, you do come across photographers who have a lot of experience, but their work doesn't kind of speak for that. And they might often.
29:36
ask you to do something in a very blunt way or ask you to pose in a way that is more leaning towards looking sexy or sensual. Or when sometimes, I don't know if it's happened to me personally, but when they ask you to look in the camera as if, I want you to look and it's like that's
30:02
trying to look sexy and appeal, like maybe you have like sort of sex appeal and appeal to the male gaze. I generally say I don't shoot for the male gaze because that's like, it is a fine line between like art nude and where it becomes like glamour or sensual sort of stuff. Because like sometimes that can be- It's very blurred as well isn't it? It is quite a blurred line. I guess I just kind of like, I try and make it as definitive as I can because I know it's some like sensual
30:32
nude stuff and like stuff that's kind of a little bit more sexy can look amazing. I've seen it done really, really well. I'm just like, I'm worried that if I lean into that, I might work with people who don't quite capture that well. Like people that want to shoot that because they want to see a sexy woman rather than the reasons why I want to shoot it to make something that's art that makes you feel something that's like, I don't know.
31:01
even ones that seem to have been shooting for a while, that don't seem to be pushing themselves in terms of like growth and they're shooting quite like sexualized imagery from where I'm standing, it just seems like they just want to kind of like pose women in a probably sexualized way. And yeah, as I'm seeing it. Yeah, I say I've been quite lucky where I haven't really come across a lot of people like that. I think generally when I do the one-to-one shoots, I can tell from their style and like.
31:29
the people that they've worked with, that they kind of, they are coming from it as an art, from an art point of view. And if someone does get in touch where I feel like they just want to see a sexy woman naked and pose her in a sexual way, then I'll just say no. Rather than finding myself in that situation, I've kind of just stopped that situation from happening in the first place, but it is less in your control if you're doing like a group shoot or a workshop where you don't have control of who's booking on, because they might come at it from a different point of view.
31:57
I mean, you sort of answered my next question, which is going to be like, where do you draw the line and what's tasteful and acceptable and like, why? Um, is there any more you could say on that? Yeah, it's kind of a tricky line because a lot of it is just kind of a feeling and a personal preference. Like someone might have an idea that maybe teeter's on the edge of sensual. And if they can like show me like a mood board, previous images, inspiration that I'm like,
32:25
that's done really tastefully and really well, I might be more inclined to say, well, let's give it a go. But if someone just says, I wanna shoot this with you, and it feels like it's teetering on the edge, I probably just say no, because I guess I'm quite particular with the style that I work with. I mean, Thomas Holm in general, that kind of does shoot more sort of, he does shoots kind of a lot of erotic stuff. And even though I haven't done any of that, even with him.
32:51
I've probably done stuff that maybe shows a little bit more than I would with other photographers with Thomas Holm. And I think that's just, it's a level of trust and it's level of understanding. It's like kind of he values art, even in the erotic stuff that he does. He does very tasteful erotic. And I think that's it. It's like, it's probably hard for other photographers to understand why I'd say no to that from them, but not from like...
33:19
Thomas Holm, I think it's like his experience and his style. It feels tasteful. His intention. When I say, when I say I've done like, maybe show more than I would, like, there's certain shots that I've done with him where you can see a little bit more down below than I normally would, because I'm not comfortable with anything down there being seen currently, and I don't do any sort of like open leg or anything. I always like, yeah, put one leg in front or like post side and stuff like that. Like, you know, I mean, that's generally my line anyway, in general. And I guess.
33:50
Another line that I kind of make a point of is, I'm very careful with when and how I look into the camera. A lot of my art nude, I don't look into the camera because that kind of feels more, that's just capturing a moment and kind of me like as like posing in the space. But as soon as I kind of look at the camera, it kind of becomes more like, okay, you're looking at me.
34:15
you're engaging with the person who's looking at the photo. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, I need to be careful with the expression I'm doing because it could kind of switch it over. Like the subtlest thing could kind of switch it to, okay, there's an entirely different tone there. This is sensual now because I'm looking into the camera in a certain way. I'm kind of wary. Sometimes I work with photographers who are like, can you now look at the camera? And I'm like, I just need to be careful with how I'm doing this because I don't want it to look like I'm kind of engaging the person in a way that I'm not.
34:44
happy with. And that's kind of a similar distinction between the art nude and the glamour nude because a lot of glamour nude is probably like really looking intensely into the camera. It's funny because like with the looking into the camera thing, when I first started doing art nude photography, I didn't like actively research what effects that would have. You know, it was just more when I was trying everything, you know, and I was just trying whatever, I'd ask a model to like, oh he looks at the camera, and I just suddenly felt this like uncomfortable. I felt uncomfortable. I was like, this is really not...
35:14
It's kind of making me feel like she's looking at me. It changes so much. Which is not what I want to happen with the image that I'm creating. And I don't think I've ever asked you to look into the camera. No, I'm not. Actually, we did maybe on the live stage thing. Yeah, well, because that's not art nude. But that wasn't art nude. It's different when it's fashion and stuff, because that's generally, you're creating a feeling, you're connecting, that's a different connection. Yeah, but then that's probably why I asked you to look into the camera then, because it's fine, and if you do, it's a more subtle thing, the look into the camera.
35:43
It's got so much more power behind it when you're nude and you're looking to a camera. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it changes the whole meaning, the entire meaning of the photo. Yeah, it does, yeah. I personally don't like it that much. But I mean, I say that, but then there are times where the context makes it so that it actually works. There's so many different factors. I actually did a shoot this year where it was body painting, perhaps because the model was nude, but perhaps because she was...
36:10
Like, she had her body painted. I felt more comfortable to direct it to look into the camera. Sure. You know? It's a whole different energy anyway. Yeah. You know, she kind of looked like an alien kind of thing, like the way the body painting was. So it gave this out of worldliness. I suppose it's not, yeah, it didn't have that just kind of raw nakedness. Yeah. Then you're looking into the lens, and it's giving a completely different message. Yeah. I mean, it's a form of like, yeah, body painting is almost like it's a form of fashion. Yeah. Because you're.
36:37
that you are wearing something in a way. Yeah. So yeah, it has a different energy. Yes. How do you find the split between male and female photographers in terms of who you work with? Poor. I've shot with only a handful of female photographers really. As art news? Yes. Okay. If even that really, I mean, I don't even think about it when I think, oh, I'm going to do a shoot. It's just that demand picture in my head. It's a man I'm going to shoot with because-
37:06
99% of the time it will be. Yeah, I've only done a small handful of shoots with women, it's been, aren't you? Was there any difference between the? There can be, yeah, I mean, there's often differences in the way they kind of talk or the way that, like the angles that they want to shoot or the type of lighting they want to shoot. I guess they generally lean towards the more delicately stuff, not that like, I mean, I shoot with plenty of male photographers who still have after the same sort of delicate feminine vibe.
37:33
But yeah, I suppose the female photographers I have found, yeah, maybe they do have more of a sensitive touch to it, which makes sense. And I guess an understanding of the female body from a female point of view. There was one lovely workshop shoot I did, which was all about flowers and it was flower arranging beforehand. Every single photographer there was a female. That was very refreshing. That's cool. Yeah, but it makes sense. You get your book to do some flower arranging and then you like do a model doing
38:03
shoot a model doing ballet with the flower arrangements. That was the workshop. I think there were maybe like 10 or 12 women. Very nice. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I've been just in comparison with like live drawing and I find that that's more women than men. I guess maybe it's because it's more of a practical art. When you think about like art in general, you do imagine that being more female dominated. I also do wonder whether there's some element of like how...
38:32
active a participant you are in the involvement with the model. You know, like in life drawing, besides I might have a conversation with them at some point, but I'm not directing them, I'm not asking them to do something, I'm not having an element of control over what's happening. I'm just there moving and I'm reacting to it. Like I'm a participant, whereas as a photographer I've got like an involvement of creative control and I wonder whether that suits men more, I don't know. An element of being in control of what they're creating.
39:01
psychoanalyzing myself there. That is an interesting thought. I mean, I don't know, it could be a gross generalization, but I'm just intrigued as to why those two things, when you put them side by side, differ when essentially the content's the same. What advice would you give to other models about setting boundaries, self-care, and kind of building long-term healthy and collaborative, creative partnerships with photographers? And models that are just starting out in general? I guess it's...
39:31
Maybe before you go into it, do as much research as you can into what you like and why you like it and what you want to get out of it. And then kind of just stick to that. I guess you don't wanna be like straight up no to anything just because you've already set your mind on completely what you wanna do. Like if someone suggests something that you hadn't thought about, you don't wanna say no because it could be a really good idea. But just not letting.
39:59
Not obviously not letting a photographer push your levels past what you're comfortable. I guess it's just about communication and honesty and an understanding of what you both want from the shoot. But yeah, just make it, I guess make it clear what you're, what you're after, what you're comfortable with doing and don't let anyone ask you to do something you're not comfortable with. But be open to trying more creative ideas perhaps. It's a difficult one again.
40:28
You don't want to let yourself be talked into something that you're not comfortable with, because that's not good. So I guess I like just to make sure that if we're doing something that perhaps is a bit further than I would have expected or would usually shoot, if they've got a mood board and yeah, inspiration images, then I know the style and mood they're going for, which can help me figure out whether I want to go ahead with it or not.
40:54
Because if they just have an idea in their head, I can't necessarily picture how that's going to work and whether it's going to be what I want to do or not. So yeah, communication, honesty, knowing what you want, and understanding and collaboration between the two. That's a good, to get into our nude especially. It does work for fashion and just starting modeling in general, just kind of like knowing what you're comfortable with. You made me think about something you said earlier as well, which, you know, when we talk about confidence, built your confidence over time.
41:23
Is that like learning how to say, no, I'm not comfortable with that? Was that something that came as you shot as well and did that play into feeling more confident? Like, you're like, what I don't want? Definitely, like the first few shoots I did, if someone had suggested I try something, I'd be more like, I guess I have to do this then. I wasn't necessarily enough confident in myself or in what I wanted or what I know, because I didn't necessarily know what I wanted to do. I was more inclined to just say yes.
41:51
to like weird ideas that may put me in a weird light or yeah, show me a weird way. But yeah, definitely just from doing and knowing what I wanna do, it has made it easier to be able to say no to things I just don't feel comfortable doing. It is hard, very much so. I used to always say yes to most things other than obvious level pushing, which I haven't actually really had anyone like really trying to push my levels. There's certain times when you're shooting that things kind of need to be said quite frankly.
42:19
But it's trying to find the words to say it in a correct or polite way. When I might need to refer to your body or certain parts of your body. How do you find managing that with photographers? You know, I think I've got to the point where with you, like, for example, if I say, can you put your hand on your boob? I'm quite comfortable with that. And I've chosen the word that word boob and you're fine with that word. But with someone new, I might...
42:46
I might go with something else, a different way of saying it. And I'm just sort of wondering, how do you manage that as a model, that kind of like interacting with words that are, as far as you're not often talking about, using in conversation, people aren't often speaking about your body in that way, you know? Yeah, it is a tricky one because it's just stuff that people aren't used to talking about. And it's just, I guess, just language and knowing that, well, you've got to talk about it in some way if you need to, like.
43:16
I guess just being respectful about it. From my side, I feel like I have to write the line of the friendship I've developed with the person as well. I've known you for a while, so I feel like I can be a little bit more frank and a bit more conversational, I suppose, and less choice with my words. I know you know where I'm coming from and it's not offensive to you. Yeah, I guess it's just an understanding again.
43:46
try not to take offense. But then I guess from a photographer's point of view, it's like if, well, like if I was standing in a way that was showing too much down below, I kind of like, I'd hope that the photographer doesn't feel too uncomfortable to tell me that more is shown. I've definitely said that to you before. Yeah, and it's good because it's like, I don't want to show too much and I'd hope that someone would say if I was and didn't not say it because they felt too uncomfortable to say.
44:15
or didn't know how to say, but something as subtle as just like, could you turn a little bit more that way? I can see a bit more than you're comfortable or just something like that. It's just like you're not using any words that feel vulgar or anything. It's like it's just, yeah, respect. On that topic, I think that's why I have whites working with you actually, because I feel like our boundaries when it comes to that are very similar. Like in terms of the images that I want to make, I don't want to make those sorts of images. So.
44:43
It naturally comes to you to not pose in those ways, you know, so it works for me. I don't have to take you away from that. You're already going down that path. I've introduced you as Aowyn Luna, but that's like your modelling stage name. But you've used Aowyn for a while. Why did you choose to have a stage name for your Art Nude modelling work? I kind of just want to tell a bit of separation between my Art Nude and my normal modelling and acting and everything else.
45:12
I guess especially as I do, as just as an actor, I do like princess parties and I do like narration for like kid stories and stuff. And if someone came across AOIN, they might, I don't know, they might not be happy with the fact that I do art nude. I mean, I suppose it's different. It's not like I'm doing glamour modeling, but different people have different opinions anyway. It's just to keep things separate. Like I keep AOIN, my Instagram private and my purple ports on, you're on members only.
45:41
And it's just so that it's just like that little circle of people within that industry, within the Art New Modeling community, they are seeing that side of me. Again, not that I'm ashamed of that part of me, it's just kind of easier if I'm more selective with who sees it, just to keep it separate. What is the difference, would you say, between Art New Photography and pornography? Where's the boundary of that? Like, what do you say the difference is? Is there a difference?
46:11
purpose and how you're trying to make the viewer feel. Because obviously with pornography, your main purpose is to turn on the person that is watching it. And you're trying to be sexy, you're trying to be sexual, you're making it look like you want to have sex with the person that is viewing it, or you're enjoying having sex with someone else while the person's viewing it, and it's entirely for their pleasure.
46:40
But yeah, with art nude, it is art. It's like not meant to turn someone on. Like, I mean, I'm sure there are people who would get turned on by art nude, but we just kind of, I just turn out to think about that. Cause I'm like, I know that's not the purpose that I'm making it for. And I like, it does make me a bit uncomfortable thinking that some people do see it like that. That is not what I want to put out there personally. Fair enough, if models do, they're happy to do that. Fantastic.
47:08
As well as you can't control other people. Exactly. That's like, I just try not to think about what some people might be thinking and just focus on, well, this is what I was aiming for. I think that's what we've achieved. This is a tone I'm trying to put out there. It's artistic. It looks cool. I'm trying not to look sexy, though. I mean, looking sexy isn't a bad thing. It's just that's where the mind kind of is. If something looks sexy, then that means someone might be turned on.
47:36
Is there a process in this of letting go? Once the photos are going up, do you have to go through a mental process of letting go of even the idea that someone might interpret it in a certain way or might be aroused by it or might be in a way that you didn't intend? I guess so. I guess I'm just really careful with the people that I work with and the style that I put out and if there is a shot that is perhaps a little bit more.
48:02
sexy or sensual or whatever, I'll just be like, I'll just not think about it and just be like, fair enough, I guess I did all I could to avoid that being a thing, but here we are and then just not think about what people might, what other people might think. I'm just trying not to think about it. Why? It just makes me feel uncomfortable because that's not something that I wanted to put out there. I mean, I can even see it in your body language. I'm just getting uncomfortable. Even the thought of it makes you feel uncomfortable. Yeah.
48:31
Which is interesting because you really are doing a profession that skirts the line. But it's closer to that than other things. Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it is interesting because it's like, I wouldn't do porn currently. I mean, obviously don't hold me to that. My mindset might completely change in the future. Who knows? But I can't see myself. But as an actor, I'd be OK doing a sex scene because it's like the character is acting sex.
49:00
and sexual, it's not me. And I think maybe some people wouldn't understand that. The differentiation between I'm putting myself out there as a sexual being as opposed to I am being the character that is being a sexual being. I don't know. It's all about intention, isn't it? Yeah. And that's a very complex, it's very complex, but you know it. Yeah. And that's what matters. Yeah, but it's like, I kind of, sometimes you just have to kind of let go of...
49:30
kind of letting it get to you of what other people think because you can't control what other people are gonna think or you can control is what you think and what you do and what other people think of you is like, it's just irrelevant because there's nothing you can do to change it. You can try, but there's sometimes no point because you just can't. I mean, just to play devil's advocate, there's certain people, male and female, when I show my images to them and I get their reaction, they can not sexualize it.
49:58
So whether you might have been in those photos or someone might have been in those photos, it's just they're incapable of doing that. Yeah, as we were saying before, because of our upbringing, we've been used to seeing art and nude images of art, but a lot of people won't and the only experience they've had of a naked body is in a sexual way. So naturally their response to that is gonna be, oh, you've taken a picture of a naked woman, you don't wanna have sex with her?
50:27
what's the purpose here? And that's just, it's just a different, different upbringing, different opinions, different... Yeah. Or have you had sex with her? Have you had that? Oh Yes! Oh Yes! How do you think social media and like online platforms has impacted and shaped your career as a nude model? Like what role does that play? Well, I guess when I first started, I wasn't being as like, I didn't have like my account on private. So more people were coming across me and maybe I was getting more interest. I was getting more followers. But now I've turned it private. Things have slowed down and maybe it's just smaller.
50:56
integral little community of people that I work with, and on Purple Port as well, being on members only. But yeah, I suppose I've only had one image that's been removed from Instagram due to a sexual solicitation, which was just, it was just a lovely artistic nude image. I reposted it, nothing happened. But I don't think I'm, I don't know if I can be shadow banned because I'm private, but I know yet, like you've had issues with being shadow banned and your work not being seen, which is stupid.
51:26
But I guess because I've been on private and I don't share as often as other people, perhaps. I don't know. I don't know why I haven't had as many issues with images being taken down or not being shown to people. I guess my image can't be shown to people anyway because I'm on private. How did you feel when the photo was taken down? I was just restraining because it was just the fact that they said it was taken down for sexual
51:55
to like pay me for sexual stuff. It was just a picture of a photo and the only caption was the name of the photographer. Like I don't think I'd even like put any hashtags or anything, there was no links. You can't, cause you can't link from an Instagram thing. Like how on earth could that be sexual solicitation? I was so confused. I want to know how, because I wasn't private. I want to know what happened. Did someone report it and why, and if so, why, why were they following me? And why did you change it to private? Just to stop.
52:24
random people coming across it, then I can just accept followers from people who are photographers. I don't accept followers from people who aren't in the industry. I still get follow requests from people who aren't, just random people without any, people who are on private, who are just some random guy. I have on my profile industry followers only, and I still get requests from random people. I mean, for me, that's like, I'm like, I'm the middle man there.
52:52
So it doesn't affect me personally, but for you I suppose it's like you want to make sure you've got like... Yeah, I don't want random guys messaging me telling me I look sexy or whatever. Very interesting. Would you like to see all forms of censorship removed from online spaces so that artists and models could work, could post their work freely without restriction in the same way as like non-art nude accounts? Yeah, it's a difficult one because it is like if all restrictions were removed, then anything could be put out there that's like...
53:21
genuinely disturbing content. Because I guess they have the restrictions to avoid like porn being shared, but it's like there's not a clear enough line between porn and art nude, which is why things are getting banned. It's like there should be. There needs to be some sort of distinction between art and porn, but because so much of that is so subjective, how could like an algorithm differentiate between the two?
53:51
because it can be such a fine line. Do you have any idea about what could be instead? I really don't. I don't actually know. It's like there's almost no way to regulate it in a way that would work. My only idea is that like, you need like an oversight board of artists, artists that understand. Whatever's fed the algorithm has come from non-artists, from people who aren't involved in that. It has to come from like human.
54:19
interaction human experience because only humans are going to be able to get the nuance between the differentiation. But it's the artists who are being penalized, isn't it? And it's them who suffer. I mean, knowing that artists and models are consistently having their work censored and removed, like profiles and accounts deleted, how do you feel about the impact this has overall on the industry of kind of art nude photography and art that involves the nude form in general?
54:47
Like, what sort of impacts do you think this has? I feel like it's like, because people used to be quite brutish and then they opened up a little bit. It feels like people are going back into being brutish where it's like people are less accepting of our nude because of censorship, probably it's kind of, subconsciously it's getting into people's heads that that's not okay anymore to see someone like that. It's like anything naked, it's like.
55:16
Like the whole point of it being sexual solicitation. Like a lot of people maybe do believe that anyone putting a naked body out there is for sexual solicitation. Well, almost like the algorithm's like educating them. Maybe, I don't know. It's like we're kind of going into more of an extreme again where it's less accepted to be nude because it's censored. I guess places like Twitter, it's more open. Maybe there's different communities on both.
55:44
But yeah, no, it's an interesting thought, how we're kind of going, we're kind of reversing, going back to when people didn't see naked bodies much at all and were very much like, no, oh no, that you cover yourself up, no. I suppose throughout human history though, that's not been a consistently one-way direction. Yeah, it's like there's always been nude art in some form. Yeah, and think about what the Romans and the Greeks were like in terms of nudity and exposing their own bodies and hanging out nude.
56:13
as a pastime. I suppose it's like, I guess because it was more underground, or it's like not necessarily underground, it's like people did it a lot, but maybe they just didn't talk about it. Yeah. It's such a deep, deep sort of like existential almost conversation. Yeah. I mean, like, fundamentally, like this podcast is kind of being built on the foundations of overriding fears. If we let that, you know, I suppose let an AI that's informed by the wrong...
56:42
In my opinion, the wrong mindset. Become more powerful and hold our hand while we create art and share it. I'm concerned about where the world might head. Because the benefit that I think that this kind of art brings to, brought to my upbringing, brings to my life now, brings to so many people. If you're not able to see it, you're not able to be the judge of what it could bring to you, and what value it could bring to your life.
57:10
And I think that's the shame. Like, you know, when you take me or you and our experience and then you multiply that by all the people that have wanted to do this and all the people that have essentially got so sick of it, so sick of having their accounts deleted, so sick of all the hard work, you know, being taken down and, you know, their careers ending in a day that they're like, sod it, I'm doing something else. You know, we're missing out on essential art that some of these people make. I mean, some of the account names that you find on Instagram, for example, are hilarious in a shit way.
57:39
And that like, you know, like there's one that's someone that I follow that's like still here, but something like still here, but not wanted or something like that, you know, and massive model, like, but it's just based on the frustration of so many accounts being deleted. Yeah. And it's like, you know, I think a lot of people like, you know, there's a general response like, well, why do you bother them? Yeah, why do you carry on? Like no one's being, no one's seeing this. So it's like, what's the point? Yeah. But then it's like, well, why do you go out on the street and protest? Like, you know, if you believe in something, you need to find a way to.
58:09
So put your foot down and make it. And what I find interesting as well is that artists, we've done this, like they're using Instagram, Instagram for example, because that's mainly where I use it. They use their tools against it. Like so the collaborative function, for example, that almost bypasses the shadow ban effect. And the more people you add into it, the further the reaches. So it's almost an argument for if artists want to create this sort of work.
58:37
you know, they're doing art and you'd work in any medium, the more you can involve your collaborators in a single post or in a single, you know, when you put your work out, the stronger you'll be together. Yeah. I do have a last question. Okay. It's a bit more of a light, light atonement, so we don't end with deadly serious. I want you to pick a body part from this list that I've created. Each one corresponds to a question. Ones I've asked you the question, I asked you to fill in the gap with your own question, which can be fun or deadly serious.
59:06
for a future guest to answer. So I've got previous guests to write these questions. Okay. So you need to pick from either head, legs, boobs, bum or hands. Ooh. Let's go for hands. Hands, sweet. If you could change one thing about the human body, what would it be? Ooh.
59:28
I don't know if it's a weird answer, but like not bruising so easily, not being so like, I don't know, sensitive or whatever. Be more like, I don't know, robust or something. I feel like that's so weird. Like you've got a shield. I don't know. That's a weird answer. I guess it's like being more like able to just do stuff without it kind of damaging you.
59:57
I don't know, because it's like, I've never broken a bone, but it might be nice if it wasn't as easy to. Just like, I don't know, that's weird. That's so weird, I've never thought about that before. I do wonder whether that would have some sort of knock on repercussions to your- Have I basically said that I want everyone to be superheroes? I'm sort of trying to think, again, playing Devil's Lads, on the other side, would that have a psychological-
01:00:26
Would there be a psychological element to that? Where it's like, sometimes you've got to take risks to your physical, you know, physical risks and there's like an accomplishment that you get out of succeeding with that. Fair point, if we were just... Not that I'm saying you're wrong. I'm just like, I just thought I'd throw that at you. Yeah, if we were capable of more, then maybe it wouldn't be as exciting. Yeah, I don't know. Would it affect what people would even try and achieve? I don't know.
01:00:53
Am I going so deep again? I know, I turned it deep when it's supposed to be fun. That was a stupid answer, but I can't think of it. I was like, let's do a light heart and end the show.
01:01:03
Art vs the Algorithm. So, which side are you on? You've been listening to Art vs the Algorithm, hosted and produced by Will Preissner, music by Ned Wolfgang Kelly, voiceover by Alexia Kombu.
